Can I brine chicken in buttermilk after I boil the chicken?

Question

I want to make crispy fried chicken and waffles. I have had great luck boiling chicken wings and then deep frying them. Can I do the same thing for fried chicken? Boil, brine in buttermilk mixture, coat and then fry? Or is there a better way?

Asked by Karen

Answer

Short answer: Brining after boiling won't do much (if anything), and you probably don't want to boil all parts of the chicken anyway.

One primary purpose of brining is to hydrate the cells of the muscle tissue before cooking, which allows the cells to hold on to more moisture during the cooking process via denaturation of the proteins. If you cook the meat first, then the heat will permanently denature the proteins first, so the brine will essentially be useless.

The reason why you want to pre-cook chicken wings is that (a) they have a lot of fat which melts off into the cooking liquid, and (b) they have a good amount of connective tissue (collagen) which needs to be cooked low and slow to soften into delicious gelatin. Most of the other parts of the chicken don't have nearly as much fat and collagen, so boiling them would likely only serve to overcook them.

Answered by ESultanik

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Does adding salt when soaking dry beans toughen or soften the skin of the bean?

Question

I have heard opinions on both sides of this. The the latest answer on this site, says salt softens bean skins quoted Cooks Illustrated (I can't see the article, but I trust CI), while another answer says salt hardens the beans' skins.

In case is varies by bean, I'm interested in:

• Kidney Beans
• Black Beans
• Small Red Beans

So which is it? Inquiring Minds want to know.

Answer

Soften. Other things that typically are added with salt will tend to toughen the beans, but it isn't the fault of the salt. For decades, chefs have circulated the oral tradition that adding salt hardens beans, but it's a myth.

Several scientific studies verify that adding salt to the soaking water for dried beans will reduce the cooking times. The first and most cited article, originally published in 1977, can be found here. As mentioned in the first answer you cited, the fine folks at Cooks Illustrated found in 2008 that 3 TBSP per gallon of water produces soft skins while not over-salting the interior of the beans. Since you can't see the full article, here is the science according to CI:

"Why does soaking dried beans in salted water make them cook up with softer skins? It has to do with how the sodium ions in salt interact with the cells of the bean skins. As the beans soak, the sodium ions replace some of the calcium and magnesium ions in the skins. Because sodium ions are weaker than mineral ions, they allow more water to penetrate into the skins, leading to a softer texture. During soaking, the sodium ions will only filter partway into the beans, so their greatest effect is on the cells in the outermost part of the beans."

Harold McGee's NY Times blog (August 9, 2008) also notes that adding salt early enough will allow complete penetration of the bean, which improves flavor.

On the other hand, things typically added with salt -- particularly sugar and calcium-rich products -- tend to toughen beans (and the salt gets the blame). This toughening effect is most notable in baked-bean recipes using things like ketchup, molasses, and BBQ sauce. You can bake these beans for days, yet the beans will stay whole and firm. The actual mechanism for this effect is not clear; one hypothesis currently circulating seems to be that these products stabilize the cell-cell "glue" (e.g., Shirley Corriher says so on Good Eats "Pantry Raid III - Cool Beans", transcript online here), but I could not find any peer-reviewed study specifically verifying that hypothesis.

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In what way is kosher chicken different from brined chicken in terms of salt absorbtion?

Question

Ideally I want all parts of my chicken to absorb a good amount of salt. I think brining is best but somebody has suggested kosher chicken. How is kosher salted differently and will all parts of kosher chicken be salted to the point where it is plump and juicy as you get when brining?

Thanks

Answer

I explained several of the differences in my answer to Brining a kosher bird and also discussed some issues relating to salt consistency in a much earlier answer to Chicken comes out salty... occasionally.

To make a long story short, kashering is a long process with many steps, but the part you're concerned with is similar to the "dry brining" technique some people are fond of using for Thanksgiving turkeys. The meat is salted directly - no water is used - and it is left to rest for a much shorter period, about 1 hour, before finally being rinsed and packed.

Kosher meat isn't "juicy" like brined meat at all; in fact, all other things being equal, it will come out much drier and tougher than unkosher meat, because in the process of drawing out blood (the reason for salting in kashering), a good deal of moisture is drawn out as well. Brining adds moisture to the tune of about 10%; kashering takes moisture away by a similar amount.

Aside from drying out, the only culinary differences you'll find with kosher birds (or other meat) are (a) less blood, uric acid, and other "undesirable" components, and (b) they are naturally saltier than unkosher birds. However, because the kashering process has nothing to do with flavouring, you can't expect any kind of consistency, and it's not uncommon to find that some parts are much saltier than other parts coming from the same bird.

Kosher birds are going to absorb roughly the same amount of salt and water from a brine. The difference is that because they've already been salted, you run the risk of over-brining to the point of being inedibly salty. That's the whole story.

If you want flavourful and moist then get a regular bird and brine it. If you care more about flavour and want to save some time (at a significant cost premium) then go ahead and use a kosher bird, no brine. You can brine a kosher bird (see first link in this answer) but you're going to have to do a little experimenting to get it right - and if you're going to brine anyway, then why bother spending the extra money on kosher meat?

Don't pay any mind to the oft-repeated claims that kosher birds are "pre-brined" or similar nonsense. The inherent saltiness of a kosher bird is significant but also incidental and thus inherently unreliable.

_{(Please also note: Assuming this is a follow-up to your previous question, none of this is going to make the slightest bit of difference if you're just going to plop the chicken parts into a pot of boiling or poaching water. If you're making broth, then you flavour the broth, not the meat.)}

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Is there any subsitute for saltpeter / sodium nitrate in corned beef brine?

Question

I realize there is another question about corned beef from scratch, but the answers don't really cover my question. Many recipes for making your own corned beef still refer to the use of saltpeter (potassium nitrate) or sodium nitrate. From what I've been able to find out saltpeter is never used anymore nor available to the home cook, and sodium nitrate is not commonly available.

Sodium nitrate in the brine gives cooked corned beef its classic reddish color (without it corned beef comes out gray), and it kills botulism spores. I like my corned beef pink (the gray color is somewhat unappetizing), but more than that I'm concerned about the flavor of the corned beef. The last time I made corned beef I tried to use Morton Tender Quick. The cooked brisket turned out beautifully pink and almost inedible. It was terribly salty and actually made my tongue numb.

So, is there anything that can be used in place of the sodium nitrate, if used in the proper quantities does its absence or presence have any effect on the flavor of the corned beef, and is there any good place to get it?

Answer

Saltpeter is potassium nitrate, which does not directly cure meats. Bacteria convert nitrate into nitrite, which is the real preservative. Saltpeter can be replaced by a smaller amount of nitrite to get the same curing effect (most commercial cured meats do this), though a prolonged cure that converts nitrate into nitrite can develop more flavor.

Tender Quick is not a direct substitute because it contains mostly salt. I've heard that you can replace the salt in your recipe with Tender Quick, and drop the saltpeter, and have a success. You would have better luck finding a recipe that was meant to use Tender Quick, though.

It is definitely possible to buy (food-grade!) saltpeter. I would check online, or at specialty stores. It's a little more difficult than picking it up at your local grocery store, of course.

(Chemistry lesson, courtesy of McGee: nitrate (NO3) is converted to nitrite (NO2), which then reacts to form nitric oxide (NO), which bonds to myoglobin in the meat, which turns it pink and prevents oxidation. Nitric oxide is also present in smoke, which gives that "pink ring" around the outside of smoked meats.)

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What is the proper amount of time to thaw + brine a turkey simultaneously?

Question

I recently saw a tip that you can thaw a frozen turkey in your brine, and I'd like to try that this year. I was planning to thaw my turkey for 3 days in a cooler of water.

I've actually never brined before, so I'm a little worried about over-brining and turning my turkey into mush. The bird we got this year is just under 15 pounds, and the package says to thaw for "3-4 days".

Everything I've found so far says to brine for 1-2 days. Should I plan to start using brine about half way through the thaw process (maybe even leave the wrapper on for that first half, too?), instead of the whole time, or will the bird being frozen initially prevent the brine from doing its magic early on, thus preventing mush?

Answer

A few things aren't quite right here.

1- a cooler full of water for 3 days.
A turkey will take 3-4 days to thaw in the fridge- between 35-40F. Quicker methods call for submerging in running water for some hours. Submerging the turkey in stagnant water- even if it started as ice water- will allow the turkey to rise well above 40F over the course of 3 days. You would have to add ice or have the turkey somewhere colder than 40F for this to be safe.

2- brining too long turning a turkey to mush.
The salt in a brine denatures some proteins and supercharges the bird with water. These will make the meat more tender and seem more tender respectively. That said- the risk isn't that the meat will get mushy. Unless you are adding some other ingredient to the brine that is actually a proteinase like papain the risk is not mushiness but being too salty.

3- 1-2 days of brining.
I have never seen a recipe that called for brining this long. The brine recipes I have seen are on the order of 4-10 hours. If your brine recipe calls for this length of time then it is probably more dilute than the ones I use. In such a case it would probably be fine to thaw it in the brine if you address the safety concern.

The turkey being frozen will prevent the brine from penetrating but as the bird thaws from the outside in the outside of the bird will have more alone time with the brine than the deeper meat. I can't say whether this would be a problem- especially as Harold McGee says that the salt from brining isn't able to penetrate very far into the meat anyway.

Unless it is cold enough outside (or you have enough fridge space) that you could brine the turkey at <40F for 2 days while it thawed I would recommend at least mostly thawing it before introducing it to your brine.

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Pulled Pork in a slow cooker. To brown or not to brown?

Question

I'm going to make some barbeque pulled pork in a slow cooker. I've done it a few times with some good results, but I'm always looking for ways to improve.

Here's what I've been doing:
1. Brine pork for a few hours
2. Slow cook all day with carrots, celery, and onions
3. Shred and toss with Montgomery Inn or Hickory Brown Suger Sweet Baby Rays bbq sauce

Here's the question: Would browning the pork help in any way? Could the pan drippings be used to jazz up the bbq sauce?

EDIT: this also popped into my head: Should I sautee the onions ahead of time?

Thanks.

Answer

A few things...

1. I brine for 12-24 hours. It really does make a difference.
2. Don't bother browning the meat... you don't want a crust, you want the meat to break down.
3. Make your own barbecue sauce! There's a zillion recipes, and it always tastes better. When I make pulled pork, I take the cooking liquid (you are cooking in liquid, yeah?) and reduce it right down to almost a demiglace, and use that as the base for my bbq sauce.

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Factory brine vs home brine

Question

I frequently make use of brining as a tool to help yield juicy (and well-seasoned) meat--especially on pork and poultry. I am usually pretty successful with this technique and get compliments from guests.

On the other hand, I have in the past purchased factory-brined poultry and found it nearly unpalatable. These will sometimes say things like "up to 12% retained water"--sometimes even 16% or 20%.

What is the difference here? My hypothesis is that one of more of these factors are a detriment to the factory-brined birds

1. Concentration (e.g. 5% vs 15%)
2. Chemicals (e.g. salt vs sodium phosphate)
3. Delivery method (soaking vs injecting)
4. Age (freshly brined vs sitting for who-knows-how-long)

It seems to me that something about the factory brine is irreparably damaging the muscle fibers. In part, I'm interested so I know what to avoid in my own brines (e.g., for #4--do I need to be sure to cook my beast promptly after brining), and in part I am just intrigued by the difference.

Answer

I think (as is so often the case with preprocessed meat) it will often depend on who you buy it from. I often buy kosher prepared birds (which are always pre-brined salted) and I've never had any complaints. The nice thing about kosher preparation, is that it is done according to very specific rules, under strict supervision. It's not a factory process.

On the other hand, I cannot abide the brined birds from major poultry companies. Their primary goal is to increase the weight of the bird, not the flavor.

Factory prep seeks to minimize time and cost. They will use cheap ingredients (largely just water and salt, with no added herbs) and they will use whatever process takes the least time, most likely injection, which has the added benefit that they can force more liquid (and therefore weight) into the meat than would normally come from absorption. They'll likely insta-freeze it, so wait time is probably not an issue, but freezing causes its own issues.

I would say, for best results, take your time. A nice leisurely soak, real salt, and no pressure on the meat. For best results (talking turkey here) look for "Natural" or "Minimally Processed": if it says that, you shouldn't have to worry about competing additives.

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