Should I pre-boil then rinse chicken bones before making stock?

Question

I'm told this releases the impurities, i.e scum, so you don't have to skim while simmering.

Asked by ted.strauss

Answer

This sounds counterproductive. Making stock means that you let the boiling water leach nutrients, flavors, and other stuff from the bones. Then you remove the solid parts (bones, scum) and are left with the gelatine and flavors dissolved in the water.

Now, if you preboil the bones and throw away the water, you throw away all the flavor which has been leached in this boil. Sure, some flavor will remain in the bones for prolonged boiling, but it will be less, and it won't be the same flavor (some tastes will cook out sooner than others). In short, the process which creates scum is the same which creates stock; you can't have one without the other.

In your home kitchen, you can mostly live with cloudy stock if you don't feel like skimming. Clear stock is more desirable, but you can keep that for special occasions. And exactly these occasions are the one when you want the most flavor, so don't compromise by preboiling.

Answered by rumtscho

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Beef Broth - What Went Wrong?

Question

Home-cooked Phở is my white whale. Anyway, before I can cook Phở, I need to be able to make beef broth, and so far I've failed completely.

My broth is greenish-gray in color, mostly flavorless, and smells like a swamp.

Here is what I did. Keep in mind, this happened TWICE:

1. I purchased a few pounds of beef knuckles from the store.
2. I placed them in a stock pot, and covered them with water.
3. I boiled them for a half hour or so.
4. I emptied the pot, along with all of the scum.
5. I did my best to scrub all of the scum away from the knuckles (very difficult).
6. I re-filled the pot with water.
7. I brought it to a boil.
8. I added some chunks of beef.
9. I skimmed the top frequently.

3 hours later: disgusting pond water.

Since this process is so time-consuming, I am not keen on experimenting with it again until I have a pretty good idea of what went wrong. I've asked around for some advice. Some told me I should roast the knuckles first. Some told me I should start with cold water. Ok, this sounds like good advice, but these seem like small potatoes. They certainly don't seem like the sort of thing that could turn a pot of beautiful, delicious beef brother into pond water. I must be doing something horribly, horribly, horribly wrong.

I'm hoping to find someone who has had a similar experience, and has a pretty good idea of why this is happening to me. =(

Asked by Knarf Navillus

Answer

Some of your 'shortcuts' are not good ideas. Definitely start with cold water. Definitely bring up the temp slowly. Definitely do not boil. Do add aromatics upfront to the broth, but remove them as they get mushy so they don't cloud it.

Standard ratio for beef broth would be: 8 pounds of bones to 6 quarts of water to 1 pound of veggies (onion, leek, carrot) to one 'boquet garni', essentially garlic, rosemary, anise flavoring for pho, and bay leaf, plus whatever else I forgot.

If you have 'pond water', which I interpret as thin-tasting, you probably put too much water in the second time -- this is fixable by slowly evaporating out the water until it gets to a good texture. If you skimmed properly, it will be clear as you do this. I will typically strain through a kitchen towel or cheesecloth as the liquid evaporates down.

I'm guessing you put in like a gallon of water, so you had like three or four times too much water.

As a warning which you probably already know, you are not going to be able to duplicate your local pho joint's broth -- the broth recipe is the thing for pho makers, and they probably have a bunch of tricks they use, including using a neverending supply of yesterdays pho, that you won't be able to do at home. That said, you should be able to get a good beef broth if you follow some basic rules for making stock.

Answered by Peter V

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Reason(s) for not making stock with oily fish (salmon)?

Question

Making stock from oily fish is often advised against, but what is the big deal? Does it just taste really bad?

Asked by cptloop

Answer

Salmon or Tuna will make a very strong flavoured stock and will have lots of oil that coat your tongue. Not what you're looking for if you want a light brightly flavoured fish sauce.

In a traditional French kitchen you want generic stocks (fish/brown/chicken/veal) that are able to be used for a wide range of sauces/dishes so having a salmon stock around doesn't meet that criteria.

That said, I worked at a restaurant that made fish stock from salmon bones all the time as it was mainly used in a house specialty, a very robust West Coast spin on Bouillabaisse. Any true Frechman would have turned his back on us in disgust for doing what we did but damn it, it tasted great and the customers loved it! For any other fish sauces we used the traditional white fish bones.

FYI...Japanese dishes use Bonito flakes (tuna) liberally to make dashi(sp?) which is a fish flavoured broth for miso soup as well as other items.

So basically what I'm saying is if a fatty fish stock gets the job done for you and you're happy with it then go for it. Just remember that if you're trying to make a classic recipe then using a non-traditional ingredient will mess it up.

Answered by Chef Flambe

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Are the leftovers from making stock good for anything?

Question

Having made stock and strained it, can the meat and vegetables boiled up in the stock be used for anything, or should they go in the bin?

Asked by Sam Holder

Answer

The veggies aren't very palatable after such a long simmering (unless you like celery paste, I guess), but if you've thrown a whole chicken in the resulting meat is wonderfully tender and flavorful.

Answered by ceejayoz

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Do I need to keep white peppercorns on hand for making stock?

Question

Many classic recipes for chicken stock call for white peppercorns (which are just skinned black peppercorns).

I'm looking to trim my pantry list a bit and white peppercorns seem unnecessary, given that black will probably do the trick, and I always have those on hand.

Does anyone have first-hand experience with a stock made with white vs. black peppercorns?

Asked by Rich Armstrong

Answer

White peppercorns are used purely for aesthetic reasons- just to avoid black specs in a pale dish.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, white peppercorns taste absolutely terrible. They have a sour, astringent, flavor not at all similar to black peppercorns.

I don't think black pepper looks objectionable so I always use it.

Answered by Sobachatina

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What bones for beef stock

Question

I finally may have found a somewhat local source for veal bones and want to start making stock in earnest. I've done chicken and turkey stocks before but for those I use entire carcasses. I've browsed around a bit and haven't really found any concrete info on what bones I should be using.

Before I make the trip to the butcher (he's about 30-40 minutes away) I'd like to know what to ask for. I've seen a couple references to avoid marrow bones a bit, and some references to neck bones, but I'd love to read/learn more about exactly what I want.

My goal is a rich nicely thickened (gelatin) stock that I can use for a delicious soup, or as a base for my sauces.

Thanks!

Answer

To get that gelatin you're looking, you need joint bones and lots of them. The back, neck, tail are great for that. If you've ever made Ox tail soup you'll know what I'm talking about as you'll get a really thick coating on your tongue from the gelatin that is disolved from the tail's connective tissues.

The reason for avoiding marrow bones is because it can make for a cloudy stock if the marrow gets broken up and the fact that marrow bones don't generally have the highest amount of connective tissues. Cloudy stocks also are caused by boiling of the stock instead of simmering.

Typically when making stock bases, you want them to be as clear as possible so you can use them for just about anything. A cloudy stock doesn't make a consomme look very nice. However, if you are just going to use the stock in items which don't demand a high amount of clarity then don't worry too much.

When you go to your butcher ask for knuckle bones(joint bones) and chine bones(back bones) as your first choice.

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Why skim “scum” from the surface of a simmering stock?

Question

I've been reading various Googled recipes and techniques for stockmaking, as I made my first stock tonight using raw chicken bones. Just about every article/recipe I read says to skim the surface of the stock in the beginning, while it is simmering. Different articles variously refer to the skimmed substances as "scum", "impurities", and "proteins".

I had started out throwing all the vegetables in at the beginning, and probably had it at too high of a simmer, so I never actually got to see any foam or collections of anything other than apparently oils/fats from the chicken appear on the surface. This got me wondering: what is that stuff that floats to the surface? Is there any reason other than aesthetics to remove it from the stock?

Answer

Skimming is for aesthetic purposes.

The scum is denatured protein, mostly comprising the same proteins that make up egg whites. It is harmless and flavorless, but visually unappealing. Eventually, the foam will break up into microscopic particles and disperse into your stock, leaving it grayish and cloudy. The more vigorously your stock bubbles, the faster this process will occur.

If the grayness or cloudiness bothers you but skimming is not an option for some reason, you can always remove the micro-particulates later through the clarification process used to make consomme.

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Using other liquid than water when making stock

Question

I got to thinking... I usually hear chefs (particularly Alton Brown as of late, since I am watching Good Eats) say that water is neutral and should only be used as a last resort, serving only to dilute without adding anything to the mix (when it comes to sauces and the like).

I made a stock once, that came out a little boring, so I was thinking. What if I use a lager, or even a light ale instead? (light as in not dark, not calorie-free). I'd possibly need to degas it first to get rid of the CO2, but I think it sounds kind of delicious...

Has anyone tried this before, or can anyone think of any reason not to? Would the flavor be weird, what about other liquids? Is it commonly done?

Answer

There's no particular reason you couldn't prepare a stock with something other than water, but it's the equivalent of buying a ream of heavy pink paper, rather than plain white photocopy paper. If that's the effect you really want, great. The thing is, stock is meant to be as boring as plain white photocopy paper -- it is a foundation for other things, versatile and effective, subtly enhancing without overwhelming the dish. For your beer idea, for example, I would cook down a couple bottles and add some stock to it. That way, the rest of my batch of stock would be useful for other recipes that don't use beer.

Note that stock may be boring but shouldn't be flavorless; stock still should taste good. If your stock was flavorless, try upping the amount of meat, veggies, and herbs compared to bones. Also, bear in mind that stock should not contain salt (you will likely reduce the stock at some point). The lack of salt, however, will deaden the flavor. When you are ready to use the stock, be sure to add a pinch of salt.

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How can I increase the extraction of gelatin and minerals from bones into my stock?

Question

I am interested in knowing how I can increase the solubility of gelatin, marrow, and minerals in my stock.

Thanks.

Answer

In terms of commercial food processing, there are more efficient ways to extract gelatin than slow-simmering the bones, generally by treating the organic matter with a strong acid prior to boiling, then using commercial evaporation and filtering equipment which is far more efficient than anything a home or even restaurant cook has access to.

According to Gelatin Food Science (see the "Gelatin Manufacture" section) it can also be first treated with a strong base solution before acidifying it, which lowers the isoionic point. It's kind of difficult to explain exactly what that is if you don't have a background in organic chemistry; technically speaking it's a relationship between pH and electrical charge - but applied to extraction it refers to the pH at which the solubility of a protein (such as gelatin) is the lowest. Lowering this is a good thing in extraction, because it means that the gelatin will be easier to filter out in an acidic solution.

Thus I have to point out the question is actually a bit contradictory; if your goal is the extraction of gelatin then you want to decrease the solubility.

But I think this is all going to be beside the point anyway, because none of this applies to stock making; the goal in food processing is to extract the pure gelatin, not to get a flavourful stock. When making a stock you definitely don't want to use an acid solution, it's going to ruin the flavour.

Realistically, when it comes to stock-making, especially at home, the only way you're going to be able to extract more gelatin is to simmer it longer. That's it. When the bones break without any resistance, that means you've denatured all the collagen and you've got all the gelatin you're going to get. I wouldn't worry about solubility because typically in stock-making you're already using more than enough water to dissolve all the gelatin that you could possibly hope to extract.

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Dark stock proportions

Question

When making croquettes, I always end up with more meat than I can use. That is to say that I'm aiming at about 20% meat in a flavor-full concentrated velouté.

The problem I'm having is that I use about 400gr meat for 1 liter of water, and that's 40% meat to begin with... (OK, after cooking the meat loses 50% weight, but I have no idea how much water evaporates).

I'm afraid to use less meat, but maybe I could add more bones?

What proportions are appropriate for a nice dark stock (or an ordinary one)?

Answer

According to the Culinary Institute of America there basic formula for all Meat or Poutlry based stock would be:

8 lb/3.63 kg bones and trimmings
5 -6 qt/4.80 - 5.76 L water
1 lb/ 454 g Standard or White Mirepoix

You would not need any actual cut of meat for a stock according to them. Those would be reserved for making a broth. Their basic formula for broth doesn't specify a ratio between meat and bones just 10 lb. of meat or poultry including bones to 5 qt water. If you are converting a stock into a broth they give the formula of 3 lbs meat to 5 qt stock. Based on that a good starting point might be 7 lb bones and 3 lb meat to 5 qt water.

Just an FYI they make all their mother sauces using stocks, broth seem to be reserved for soups and other applications.

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Is there any use to salmon heads and spines?

Question

The fishmonger gave me a whole salmon rationed, and included the head and spine. I threw the head and spine away, but was wondering whether there is any culinary use for it.

Normally in a fish stock, I use white fish, not blue.

Answer

I agree that you can get some good meat from the head and could use it to flavour Bouillabaisse, i wouldn't however use it for stock as oily fish can lead to a cloudy fatty stock rather than the clearer and more flavoursome fish stock that can be derived from the off cuts and bones from white fish.

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Can I use duck feet to make duck stock

Question

I had my first crack at making chicken stock the other day and now I would like to try duck stock.

One of the posts I read when learning how to make chicken stock was about using chicken feet. It mentioned:

It has its own unique and wonderful flavor, and the added gelatin from the feet give whatever dish is made with the stock a luxurious feeling when eating it.

Is this also true with duck stock?

Can I follow a chicken feet stock recipe and simply swap the chicken feet for duck feet?

Answer

Duck feet will render plenty of gelatin because of the amount of cartilage, same as chicken feet. Any bird's feet are a good choice.

The method for making stock is pretty much the same no matter what you put into it, so yes, you can follow your favourite recipe for chicken stock and substitute duck feet. The only thing to keep in mind is that duck feet, like any other duck parts, are substantially more fatty than their chicken equivalents, so assuming you want a clear or mostly-clear stock, you'll have to spend a lot of time skimming.

Alternatively you can "clean" the feet and other bones by boiling them in plain water for 5-10 minutes, then dumping it all out and starting over - which is what your linked recipe suggests. I don't usually do this for brown stocks because you lose a lot of flavour, but if you're starting from raw then it won't make much difference and it's an easy/lazy way to get rid of a lot of the fat at once.

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What are good ingredients to put into a Scrapple soup stock?

Question

I'll try to make this as focused as possible, so that a reasonable answer can emerge. I have a (loaf?) of scrapple, which Wikipedia describes as:

traditionally a mush of pork scraps and trimmings combined with cornmeal and flour, often buckwheat flour, and spices. The mush is formed into a semi-solid congealed loaf, and slices of the scrapple are then panfried before serving.

I'm fairly new to cooking, so this is a question about soup stocks in general. Given the ingredients, is it possible to create an edible soup stock from it, as one would from other leftover meats? If so, what kind of ingredients would pair well?

Answer

The purpose of stock is to dissolve collagen out of the meat and bones into gelatin. The liquid is then not so watery, collects a lot of flavor, and can be reduced for sauces if desired, etc.

The problem with the scrapple is that, while it does have a some gelatin, it also has a ton of fat and starch. The fat would melt and have to be skimmed off again. The starch would gelatinize. This would result is not a stock but a gravy.

The solution would seem to be to find recipes where the starch and fattiness would be desirable. The first thing that would come to mind would be a thick stew. I would cube and sear the scrapple before adding it. It might take some experimentation to figure out how long to let it stew to thicken the stew without turning the crapple to mush.

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Chicken Stock alternatives?

Question

I want to make a barbecue sauce which has chicken stock in its recipe.
This is the first time I needed chicken stock for cooking; somehow, I didn't come by it up until now.

Anyway, neither me or any of my roommates ever buy chickens with bones; we always buy clean chickens or clean wings (nothing to create stock with).

I understand I could buy a chicken with bones for the sake of making chicken stock, but I was wondering whether there is an easier, alternative solution that could substitute for chicken stock in my sauce. Think of "chicken stock for students."

Answer

Considering the sheer number of rather strong ingredients in that recipe - if it were me and I didn't have stock and didn't want to make or buy any...I'd substitute broth as a first option and salted water as a second option.

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