Bagels not rising

Question

I recently made bagels following this recipe, but they didn't pass the "float test" (see step 10). I took them out of the fridge for an hour, put one in a bowl of cold water, and it sunk. I repeated the test a couple times during the next hour, but they still sunk, and they hadn't noticeably increased in size.

Eventually I just went ahead with the boiling and baking. They came out edible, but pretty dense and small.

What are some things that might have gone wrong?

I bought the (instant) yeast within the last couple of weeks, so it should be good. In fact, I used the same package of yeast when making this other bagel recipe, which worked very well.

I did have to add a little extra water to the dough, since it was very dry. Could that be part of the problem?

Asked by JW.

Answer

Yes, a very dense dough will not be able to rise. The gases will not have the strength to push the hard dough apart. There are types of bagels which are supposed to be quite dense, but American bagels are seldom made this way. This recipe is quite low hydrated at 52%, so even small errors can push it into problematic territory.

Individually packaged instant yeast keeps for a very long time. Big packs keep well if refrigerated after opening. Your yeast is not likely to be the problem. There are three possible problems you may have encountered:

• You measured your dry ingredients by volume, not weight
• You used the wrong type of flour
• The recipe gives an insufficient amount of time

Measuring Ingredients

I suspect that you probably measured by volume. This is the most common mistake which leads to a wrong dough consistency. You should measure by weight because measuring by volume is not precise enough: depending on your technique and on the humidity in your pantry, you can have up to 50% measuring error. The recipe gives you a weight; use it. If you find a recipe which doesn't give you a weight, consider changing the recipe - the best sources always use weight. If you insist on using a recipe specified in volume units, use a converter and measure everything in weight. This ensures that you use the ratio given in the recipe and eliminates technique errors on your part. If the recipe author didn't make technique errors while creating the recipe, you will get the right output. (For example, Corriher calculates her recipes by weight ratio, but she lists them in volume because her readers prefer it that way. If you convert back by the factor she gives, you will never be wrong). If you absolutely must measure by volume, then pour your flour into the measuring cup and level it by shaking. Never scoop flour. Still, prepare for botched doughs from time to time, even with pouring.

Flour Type

The second likely reason is the wrong type of flour. Or maybe not "wrong" per se, but different from what the author had in mind. In different regions, flour labeled as "bread flour" has different amounts of gluten. If in doubt, look at your nutrition label; it should be around 12% for bread flour. If it's not, adjust the amount of water slightly (you have to go by feel here).

Timing

The time given in the recipe is also shady. At 4.5 g dry yeast and 453g flour, it is equivalent to 3% fresh yeast (even less if you overmeasured the flour). This is a good percentage for a slow, long rise. But saying to ferment it in the fridge "for at least one hour" is nonsense. This amount of yeast needs more than an hour at room temperature, or something like 6 hours in the fridge, even for a rich wet dough - probably more for the lean dense one. If you only kept it for an hour before shaping, you didn't have any primary rise. Next time, just go by volume. Primary fermentation should double the dough volume. The change in volume in secondary fermentation depends on the process, and I don't remember the correct one for bagels.

Bottom line: your diagnosis sounds very likely - not enough fermentation for the amount of flour. Measure correctly, and allow enough time for fermentation, to get your bread right.

Answered by rumtscho

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Homemade Golden Ginger Ale

Question

I recently made some homemade ginger ale. It was good, but it really tasted more like ginger beer. I was hoping for a flavor that tasted a bit more like golden ginger ale, sort of like Red Rock. It has a strong ginger flavor and a bite. What could I add (or how much more ginger should I add) to or what should I change in homemade ginger ale to get this "bite" and stronger ginger flavor?

Asked by jandjorgensen

Answer

If you want a stronger flavor, and more bite, add more ginger. I make a dark, spicy ginger beer. I do not use yeast, but rather force carbonate. I don't know the exact quantities of ingredients used, I just make to taste each time.

Below is my ingredient list:

• Fresh grated ginger
• Peppercorns
• Molasses
• Cane sugar
• Fresh squeezed lemon (added after the mixture has cooled)

Molasses: Give the brew a thicker taste and darker caramel color, leave it out if you want it milder.

Ginger: Fresh ginger is key, don't use the powdered stuff. The more ginger you add, the spicier and more bitter it will be. You may need to increase the sugar content a bit too.

Lemon: This adds a nice zing.

Peppercorns: It may sound a little bit odd, but the peppercorns go very nicely with the ginger and lemon. Just add these to taste when you throw in the ginger.

I've also experimented with different types of sugars like Maple Syrup and Palm Sugar. Those each impart different flavors and may be worth trying too.

Answered by rhooligan

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Why didn't my brioche rise?

Question

This weekend I attempted to make this recipe for brioche. I did the first step and combined the the milk, yeast, 1 egg and 1 cup of flour which caused very big clumps and then I added the sugar.

I then did the 2nd through the 5th steps but the clumps stayed and the dough was really wet (like pancake batter) so I tried adding more flour until I got something like the right consistency. I then covered the dough and put it in a draft free area that was warm for 2.5 hours but my yeast did not rise and the dough still had clumps in it. I waited longer but nothing so I had to throw it away.

I really wanted to try this recipe again so I would appreciate any insight into what I did wrong.

Asked by Luz_Ramirez

Answer

First, try proofing your yeast (mix 110°F water, a little sugar, and a little yeast in a small container; confirm that it foams). It may be that your yeast is (well) past its prime. That's the most likely reason I can think of that your dough didn't rise.

Second reason could be that while mixing, the dough got too hot—heat will kill yeast. Yeast dies somewhere around 130°F, but really you want to keep it much cooler than that. If its getting too hot, consider starting with colder ingredients (e.g., ignore the instruction to warm the milk).

Finally, I'd suggest using recipes that are by weight; flour is much easier to measure by weight. You may be using a different scooping technique than the recipe author.

Also—there is something weird about that recipe. It lists 3½ cups flour in the ingredients, but then only has you add 2½ cups in the steps. I suspect that is a mistake, and explains the batter-like consistency you got.

Answered by derobert

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Does nutritional yeast expire or go bad?

Question

I have a tub of nutritional yeast with a "best by" date of February 2012 (at the time of this posting, it's about a month past that). Is it still good to use? It still looks and smells the same as it always has.

In general, what is the shelf life of nutritional yeast?

Does nutritional yeast ever expire or otherwise go bad? Or just lose nutritional value?

Asked by Ben Lee

Answer

Your question: is it good to use. My answer: yes.

1. You say it smells and looks normal. That's an important clue.

2. We are talking about a dry product. No moist means no growth, no toxins...

3. Best before date. Wikipedia:

Most shelf life dates are used as guidelines based on normal and expected handling and exposure to temperature. Use prior to the expiration date does not necessarily guarantee the safety of a food or drug, while a product is not always dangerous nor ineffective after the expiration date

Answered by BaffledCook

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Exploding or alcoholic soda

Question

Well, I tried to follow a very simple recipe from "Cooking for Geeks" for Ginger Lemon Soda.

I made a simple ginger syrup by cooking ~200g of chopped ginger together with 2 cups of sugar, then I used half of that syrup together with 1/2 a teaspoon of yeast (from the local home-brew store), and topped off with 900 ml of water.

The recipe says: Let rest at room temperature for two days, then refrigerate and drink.

Well, for the first batch, I had so much pressure that when I opened it, it came out like champagne and I lost half of the soda.

For the second batch, I put it in the fridge after one day. Now the level of carbonation is just right, but it's still a bit alcoholic. I had half a glass and I can definitely tell that there was some alcohol involved.

I wonder: What is the way to go to get nice sparkling soda that isn't also high in alcohol?

Asked by Lagerbaer

Answer

This recipe is listed under the section for fermentation, together with beer, wine and mead. The section starts with the sentence "Wine, beer and traditional sodas all depend on yeast to ferment sugar into alcohol and generate carbonation".

I don't know enough about the history of soda to know if early sodas were alcoholic. Or rather, I am quite sure that there were alcoholic, fermented, carbonated drinks long before what we call "soda" today existed, but I don't know if they were called soda.

Whatever the language problem is, this recipe is definitely intended to produce a low-alcohol beverage, comparable to beer. If you want carbonated syrup, you should buy a carbonating machine. These take a bullet full of CO2 and press it into the drink base you have selected.

As for the too-strong carbonation, this is probably due to the vague term "room temperature". Yeast growth speed depends on temperature. Because it is an exponential growth, even small changes in temperature can lead to vastly different results. If you want to repeat the experiment despite the alcohol production, try better controlling for the temperature. As I don't brew, I can't tell you the temperature for optimal carbonation after two days, you will have to find it out by yourself.

Answered by rumtscho

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What is the difference between a poolish and a biga?

Question

Both poolish and biga are pre-ferments. Poolish is a French name, biga an Italian term. What other differences are there between the two?

Just to give some direction: are there differences in making them? Can you both keep them as long? How does the dough feel with it? What difference does it make in the end result? Is there a difference in flavour/colour/texture?

Asked by Mien

Answer

I had to consult my copy of Bread Baker's Apprentice by Peter Reinhart to be sure, but here is a quote:

There are two types of firm, or dry, pre-ferments and two types of wet pre-ferments. The firm pre-ferments are known as pâte fermentée and biga. The wet pre-ferments are called poolish and levain levure.

...

Biga, an italian style of firm pre-ferment, differs from pâte fermentée in that it doesn't have any salt in it. Also, rather than cutting off a piece of finished bread dough to hold back as an improver, a biga is made specifically to be used as a pre-ferment.

So, it seems the main difference lies in the hydration of the dough, where a poolish is made with a ratio of equal water and flour. There also seems to be a few other differences. A biga apparently uses .5 percent yeast to flour, while a poolish uses .25 percent.

Mr Reinhart does not say anything about a concrete difference in final result between these methods - just that a 'wet' pre-ferment is faster. Faster in the sense that in the same time-frame a poolish will develop more flavor and character than a dry pre-ferment.

Sadly I've personally only used a wet pre-ferment, since it is easier to handle. Just whisk it prior to bed time with a wire whisk and mix in the rest of the ingredients the next day. Having a full blown dough makes it more difficult to incorporate the rest of the ingredients.

Answered by Max

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does bread have alcohol in it?

Question

According to wikipedia, the byproducts of yeast fermenting (like done in baking it says) are carbon dioxide and alcohol (not necessarily ethanol -- the kind you can get drunk on).

If that's the case, then technically speaking does every form of raised bread have chemical alcohol in it?

Asked by Thr4wn

Answer

The majority of the alcohol evaporates during baking.

McGee's On Food and Cooking says (pg 532):

In making beer and wine, the carbon dioxide escapes from the fermenting liquid, and alcohol accumulates. In making bread both carbon dioxide and alcohol are trapped by the dough, and both are expelled from the dough by the heat of baking.

I also found this report, which states that some alcohol (0.04 to 1.9%) may remain.

However, the report is from 1926, so
1. it may not be really represent modern day situation
2. the data, methodology etc. is not reported: it looks more like an informal news than a real research article, so I cannot critique on whether the results are realistic.

Answered by nico

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What are the optimal conditions in making wild yeast starter?

Question

I recently learned that I don't need to buy packets of yeast to make bread. I can create a sour dough starter by utilizing the wild yeast floating around in the air. Take a look at this article for more information:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/edible-innovations/sourdough2.htm

What are the optimal conditions for creating a sour dough starter:

• Are there optimal locations that has a higher concentration of wild yeast? (such as a cold/warm place or a place with alot/little light)
• What type of flour would work best?
• I also read somewhere to use acidic fruit juice to help accelerate the process. Is this true? And if so, why?
• Some starters call for sugar and milk. What would these additions do?

Asked by Jay

Answer

Some answers to your questions, based on my experience with wild sourdough starter in San Francisco:

• 70-80F is the ideal temperature range. Below that the yeast incubates very slowly; above it, the starter will tend to ferment alcoholically.
• Do not leave the starter in direct sun. UV light is a powerful sterilizing agent.
• An organic, cold-processed (i.e. stone milled) flour works best, because it will retain the maximum amount of its own wild yeast on it. Cheeseboard: Collective Works likes to start with rye flour and gradually add bread flour, but they don't give a tested reason for this.
• I have never heard of using fruit juice in a sourdough starter. I would be dubious about it; you'd be likely to end up with vinegar.
• Sugar is unnecessary for sourdough starters.
• Use purified water; chlorine/chloramine/ozone in tap water can kill your starter.

Finally, starters incorporating milk are fridge-only starters (as opposed to flour-and-water starters, which can be kept at room temperature if split frequently) which depend on the bacteria and lactic acid from the fermenting milk for part of their sourness. They can be effective, and actually a good choice if you live somewhere with weak/poor wild yeast. Note that you cannot transform a milk sourdough into a water sourdough, and using up 2 cups of milk every 2 weeks is more expensive than 2 cups of filtered water.

Answered by FuzzyChef

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Is 'Pizza yeast' any different than normal baking yeast?

Question

A friend (Italian) mentioned that she uses 'Pizza Yeast' for making pizza, and one can't use normal yeast or it'll "grow too much".. I looked around the internet for "Pizza yeast" and all I found was people saying that it was a marketing gimmick and it was just normal instant yeast.

So here's my questions, is there anything special in "Pizza yeast" or can we just use normal yeast (in lesser amount of course) and achieve the same??

Answer

From what I can find, it contains 'dough relaxers' so you can shape the dough without it springing back. It also claims you don't need to let it rise, but it then tells you to bake your pizza for 30 minutes! So it essentially rises in the oven.

Compare this to 'proper' dough which you let rise for a couple of hours, pull into shape and then bake in a screaming hot oven for 5 minutes tops. It strikes me that using pizza yeast is 'pizza for dummies'; claiming 'it stops it rising too much' is nonsense because if the amount of yeast is correct in your recipe you control the rise anyway.

So it depends on whether you like doing things easy or doing things right. You can bet your pepperoni slices they don't use 'pizza yeast' in Naples. Personally I cheat just a little and use dried fast-action yeast as it has a longer shelf-life and you don't fuss around proving it, and my pizzas come out great.

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Why let dough rise twice?

Question

I'm just wondering, what's the point of letting dough rise twice? I've seen a bunch of recipes in the form:

1. Mix dough together and knead
2. Let it rise
3. Knead again
4. Let it rise again

Why do they do this? Doesn't kneading just push the air bubbles out?

Answer

Allowing dough to rise twice results in a finer gluten structure than allowing it to rise once. It results in a smaller crumb and prevents huge gaping airholes in your bread. The reason that you have to let it re-rise is that you just pushed all the air out with the kneading you did developing that gluten structure.

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What is the purpose of nutritional yeast?

Question

I have several recipes for seitan which call for nutritional yeast. I've never used it before and am curious about its purpose.

Is it for flavor, texture, nutritional value?

Answer

This product is new to me, but it looks interesting.

The flavour of nutritional yeast is described in Wikipedia:

Nutritional yeast has a strong flavor that is described as nutty, cheesy, or creamy, which makes it popular as an ingredient in cheese substitutes. It is often used by vegans in place of parmesan cheese.

Nutritional yeast is a so called complete protein.

A complete protein (or whole protein) is a source of protein that contains an adequate proportion of all nine of the essential amino acids necessary for the dietary needs of humans or other animals.

This also explains why it is popular among vegans, that needs to replace the amino acids in meat with alternative food sources.

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Does salt interfere with the yeast in the dough swelling process?

Question

I was told by a friend that, when making pizza dough, I should add the salt at a later stage than the yeast, because it might disturbe the yeast from doing its thing...

I apologize for not having anymore concrete information, I just wanted to check this...

Answer

Salt in high concentrations can kill yeast yes. So can sugar, though salt is so much better at it. You see both are hygroscopic, meaning that they suck water out of stuff. This induces osmotic stress to the yeast cells leading eventually to cell breakdown (aka death).

On lower concentrations salt will throttle the yeast fermentation producing a richer and more uniform crumb.

Adding the salt early or later in the process will have a big effect on your dough, but that won't be because of the way it messes up with the yeast. Salt is supposed to coagulate gluten proteins, in a sense it "stiffens" the dough. On various situations this should happen late in the process (e.g. see the "Delayed salt method" used for sourdoughs).

For pizza dough I'd add the salt early.

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Are there any substitutes for honey when trying to activate yeast?

Question

Are there any substitutes for honey when trying to activate yeast? I have a bottle of corn syrup and was wondering if I could just use that.

Answer

Yes you can use 3/4 cup (180 ml) of light/dark corn syrup:

You can use any of the following substitutions:

• 1 cup of honey

• 3/4 cup (180 ml) maple syrup plus 1/2 cup (100 grams) granulated white sugar

• 3/4 cup (180 ml) light or dark corn syrup plus 1/2 cup (100 grams) granulated white sugar

• 3/4 cup (180 ml) light molasses plus 1/2 cup (100 grams) granulated white sugar

• 1 1/4 cups (250 grams - 265 grams) granulated white or brown sugar plus 1/4 cup (60 ml) additional liquid in recipe plus 1/2 teaspoon cream of tartar

Courtesy of Joy Of Baking

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How to get threads in a yeast dough?

Question

I think I may make some traditional food for Easter this year. What I love most is a type of rich sweet bread called kozunak. The perfect kozunak is defined by many qualities, but what I find hardest is the texture. First, it should be really tender. Second, it must be very airy. Third, it should be juicy, not as dry as normal bread, but not doughy. Fourth, it should have threads. This means that the bread is broken instead of cut, and the dough should easily separate along lines made by pulling while kneading it. The best way to imagine that is to think of collagen-rich meat taken out of the slow cooker and pulled apart into its muscle fibers. Here is a picture of what the threads should look like (I hope the colours of the original are off, else it isn't the perfect kozunak with that colour ;) and the crumb is denser than usual).

The ratio of the recipe is probably important. It is a very wet dough for yeast, and has enough fat to make a quiche envious. (Also, this is the only bread I know of which is kneaded in oil instead of flour to prevent sticking). A typical recipe is:

1 kg flour [assume all purpose] 
55 g live yeast 
300 g white sugar 
250 g milk [can be partially or wholly substituted for cream] 
250 g butter 
8 eggs 
lemon rind, zests 
vanilla extract 
1 tbsp rum
yolk for glazing
raisins (optional)
almonds (optional)

I am not very good at getting it this way, because there is at least a year between each of my tries, meaning that I don't remember what I did when it went good and when it went wrong. My grandma and all of her friends love to give "surefire advice" on how to get it that way. And the advice of one friend contradicts that of another one (if it isn't internally inconsistent at to start with). I think that you SeasonedAdvicers are less likely to just perpetuate old myths without understanding them than these nice old ladies. So if you are experienced with yeast doughs, I will appreciate your opinion on following factors.

1. Fat type. This recipe says butter, but there is lots of advice to use lard instead, to make it "more tender". I am not sure that this has any consequence in yeast dough, probably some well-intentioned home cook decided that if it works for pie crust, it works for bread too. But I'd like to hear your opinion.
2. How many times should I let it rise? The usual procedure is something like Rise yeast in milk - mix everything, knead - rise (ca. 2x volume) - knead - rise (ca. 3x volume) - knead, pull, braid - rise (ca. 2x volume) - bake. But some leave the middle rising out, letting rise a bit more the other times. Is it a simplification, or is the procedure outlined overkill? Are there disadvantages to that much rising?
3. How much should I knead it each time? Some say lots of kneading in the beginning, the least amount at the end. Others say that the least amount of kneading every time is best. What do you advice?
4. Optimal oven temperature? It gets thick, because it increases in volume another 2x to 3x before setting, 10 cm isn't unusual. That would speak for a lower temp, around 160°C. But the years I followed this instinct, it got quite dry (maybe I didn't check properly for doneness). So maybe less time at a higher temp. But this is theory, what would an experienced baker suggest?

I think that's about it, but if you have other useful suggestions, please tell. This type of dough has a reputation for being tricky (or is it just the fact that it is rarely made so home bakers are inexperienced? Or that the expectations on the final product are high?) and I'll check the theory again, but help from more experienced bakers would be appreciated.

Edit: maybe I didn't make it entirely clear what puzzles me most. As I see it, I need exuberant gluten formation for the threads (and the long rising supports this theory). But to make it tender and airy I'd think that I want less gluten. So the theory just confuses me this time. I hope that at least the juicy part is taken care of by the abundant fat.

Answer

Damn, that looks good. I've never made this particular type of bread before, but here are some things that I do know which might help:

Butter is (roughly) 10% water and 90% fat, while lard is 100% fat. So if you substitute one for the other, you should adjust the amount of water in the recipe accordingly. The flavor will be a little different, but I bet either one would work.

I would not assume AP flour. In fact, I'd assume high-gluten bread flour. The gluten is what creates those fibers. It's the fat that keeps it tender.

This looks very similar to a brioche, so you might want to look at brioche recipes to learn some of the principles. One thing that most of them will tell you is to to knead the dough to develop the gluten fibers, and then add the butter. This I think is the key. I know that fat can keep gluten molecules from sticking together into strands, so if you add the fat later, you should wind up with strands of gluten surrounded by fat.

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