Do you have to use water to sous vide?

Question

I've been using the beer cooler hack instead of a sous vide machine and I was wondering if water is the only medium I can use to cook in it. I was thinking that I could fill it with oil for a high thermal mass that would use less energy since I'm using a plastic bag to prevent any contact with the food anyway. Also, how important is that plastic bag? Could I use a broth to sous vide in with something pourous holding my meat and seasoning together?

Asked by sarge_smith

Answer

You could use oil, but I don't think it's worth it; realize that you're going to be using additional energy for obtaining, cleaning, and disposal of it.

Regarding using a broth with a porous bag, well, that isn't sous vide. That's more akin to a slow-cooker. The whole point of sous vide is the airtight barrier between food and heat.

Update

Oil does not have a higher thermal mass than water. Ammonia does, but I'd suggest avoiding that. ;)

Source: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-fluids-d_151.html

Answered by hobodave

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Party scale sous-vide

Question

I have used the chilly bin (cooler) sous-vide hack at home for a while and get excellent results for up to eight servings

I use extra insulation on the lid and a digital submersible flexible probe thermometer. The whole setup only loses around one degree C per hour with four servings

I want to go to party scale, say 30 to 40 servings, what are my chances of success?

Should I just get three or four chilly bins or just one large bin?

Has anyone had success at large scale sous-vide at home?

I am using it for chicken breasts and sliced fatty beef cuts. These are home-kill cuts so I know of the quality and cleanliness

Edit

In my 25L chilly bin for four serves of Chicken breasts, I half fill the chilly bin with tap hot water and add one jug (2L) of boiling water = 63°C. When I add the four pouches of chicken it drops to 62°C. A hour later I take out the chicken at 61°C, and add a small jug of tap cold water and I have 56°C, four beef cuts go in for an hour too. Temperature at end is 55°C

Asked by TFD

Answer

Has anyone had success at large scale sous-vide at home?

My scale was not quite as big as yours, but I cooked my Thanksgiving turkey for the extended family this year sous vide. Not only was the outcome a huge hit among the guests, but it was a huge relief for (your truly) the chef.

I want to go to party scale, say 30 to 40 servings, what are my chances of success?

In my experience, scaling up is one of the biggest advantages of cooking sous vide. Cooking 30-40 servings on a home stove would be a daunting prospect, to say the least. With sous vide, 15–20 servings is only marginally more work than 4–6. Again, I've not done 30–40, but it should scale accordingly.

Should I just get three or four chilly bins or just one large bin?

If your food will fit in one cooler, it will work, but I think you'll find it much easier to use more. The more water you have, the slower it will lose heat, and thus, the less you will have to pay attention to it. I also typically cook chicken and beef at separate temperatures, so I would probably have two coolers for chicken and two for beef.

Answered by Ray

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Can putting items with high heat capacity smooth out heat changes in Sous Vide?

Question

So was recently thinking about the beer cooler sous vide method and had a thought:

While heating the water to put in the beer cooler, if you were to place an object with a high heat capacity (e.g. a ceramic coffee cup) in the water, heat both to the desired temperature and then place them in the beer cooler, would that help keep the water at a more constant temperature?

In other words, since you are replacing some of the water with a material at a higher heat capacity at the same temperature that would in turn keep the rest of the water warmer for a longer period, correct?

Asked by alexpotato

Answer

Water has one of the highest heat capacities available:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_capacity#Table_of_specific_heat_capacities

Your ceramic is not going to hold nearly as much heat as the water bath itself.

If you are finding that your bath is cooling too quickly then you are better off investigating your cooler.

Answered by Sobachatina

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Spanish Codfish with sous-vide

Question

I recently made a Spanish codfish. It's called Bacalao al pil pil. The trick is to render the gelatin from the fish at a low temperature, reserve the fish meat and then mount the gelatin with oil. The whole process is somewhat longer.

The question is that codfish has a thick part and a thin part. So over/under cooking is always a problem. That's where I thought of the sous-vide technique. At what temperature could the fish be perfectly cooked and at the same time release all the gelatin?

Asked by BaffledCook

Answer

Per this paper, you want an extraction time of 15-60 mins at 113F / 45C. This patent uses temperatures below 131F / 55C. Both of those temperatures may be too low to make the cod actually taste good / cooked. 140F is a fairly typical temperature for sous vide fish. While 113F has some interesting results, it may or may not work for your dish as the result comes out quite different than standard cooked fish. However, I don't think that using a higher heat will have a negative effect on the gelatin extraction, so I'd start with 140F and work down from there.

This process may cause other problems though. In addition to extracting the gelatin, any other juices from the fish will mix with your gelatin. In a pan, these may steam off, but with sous vide you're stuck with them. I think you're likely to end up with a mixture that's much more watery than if you used a pan. You may find that this needs to be boiled down a little bit in order to get the desired consistency of your emulsion.

As always with sous vide, you've also got potential safety issues. You'll never reach pasteurization at 113F. You should check Douglas Baldwin's A Practical Guide To Sous Vide for cooking times (which are highly dependent on width).

Answered by yossarian

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Tenderness of sous-vide pork chops

Question

I made some sous vide pork chops this week that didn't turn out as tender as I expected. They were about as tender as when I grill them; maybe a little bit worse.

I had marinated them overnight in a Vietnamese soy sauce, fish sauce, sugar, lemon grass, etc., marinate and them cooked them at 132 degrees in the marinade for about eight hours.

What could I try to do differently? Longer cooking? Brining?

Asked by David Norman

Answer

I had similar experiences, and I've found that there is a big difference for long cooking between 132°F and 138°F (55°C vs 57.5°). Try a slightly higher temperature next time, you should be pleasantly surprised!

Answered by Marc-André Lafortune

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Are there health issues with sous-vide cooking?

Question

As I understand the technique, you put a food item in a plastic bag and dump it into warm water for some amount of time.

What happens to bacteria growth inside the bag?

Asked by BaffledCook

Answer

If you do it properly, no there are no health issues.

A combination of two things are required to kill beasties: heat and time. The higher the heat you expose them to, the faster they die. Generally any temperature above 130 F is enough to kill most beasties, it just requires a significantly larger amount of time compared to a higher temperature.

I go into a lot of detail regarding Salmonella in this answer of mine:

http://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/4292/is-it-safe-to-eat-a-cooked-steak-that-briefly-touched-the-plate-that-was-holdin/4307#4307

I have several tables there to show exact timings, etc.

_{If you think I should copy/paste that here, then let me know in a comment}

Answered by hobodave

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What temperature should I use for sous-vide chicken breasts?

Question

I'm finally going to advance my sous vide repertoire from just steaks to poultry. I know the safety issues and am familiar with the salmonella death rate chart. What I'm wondering about is the texture of the meat itself.

I've been cooking chicken on the grill and in the oven and in the pan and have grown used to a particular texture for the meat. Most of these techniques end up taking the breast meat up to the 160-165 F range.

With sous vide I have a much better control over what temperature I can safely eat the meat at, however I don't want the texture to drive me away from the experience. I was thinking of preparing the chicken at around 150-155.

Does anyone have any experience with poultry at these lower temperatures?

Asked by Brian

Answer

Go for 145. 2 hours.

Salmonella dies even at "low" temperatures (from 135) as long as you cook it for longer.

135 for at least 87 minutes, will kill salmonella.

However, I like it best when cooked at 145 for 2 hours.

Answered by Ronni Plindstrup

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Should I sear sous-vide chicken breasts?

Question

I'm planning on cooking some boneless skinless chicken breasts tonight sous-vide. Should I finish them with a quick pan sear like I do with my steaks or should I just season and slice?

Asked by Brian

Answer

I would sear. It is not necessary, really, but I prefer the texture and flavor that comes with a good sear. To me, while it would be moist and tender, it would also be rather uninteresting. Bear in mind much of this is driven by personal preference.

Answered by Sean Hart

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How do I control the temperature of water for an extended period of time?

Question

When making the "perfect" mash, Heston Blumenthal recommends cooking waxy spuds in hot water for half an hour at the temperature of 72 degrees Celsius, exactly. At 75 degrees stuff starts breaking down.

I would like to try this out but am unsure how I can keep the temperature constant.

What kitchen tools and process can I follow to measure the temperature throughout the process? Are there any tricks?

Answer

You can try to set up my at-home on-the-cheap monkey-at-the-controls sous-vide machine. I take a nearly full 22 quart stock pot with an analog instant read thermometer to monitor the temperature and watch the temperature and adjust the dial accordingly.

With this only needing 30 minutes you probably just want to get the water to exactly 72 degrees C and then immerse the potatoes without adding any heat. The amount of energy in 20 quarts of water is phenomenal and you won't lose a lot of heat to the air.

Alternatively you could get 72 degree water and a beer cooler and try that way for the extra insulation.

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Is there a way to make compressed watermelon without a vacuum machine?

Question

I've got in mind to make a dish with compressed watermelon, but I don't have access to a vacuum machine. I've tried once using weight, but it just cracks because the pressure is all from one side. Thoughts? If not, can it be done with a home vacuum food-saver type device instead of a restaurant quality vacuum machine? What about denser foods such as canteloupe or cucumber?

Answer

Haven't tried it but here: http://newmountaincookery.typepad.com/a_new_mountain_cookery/2008/06/compressed-wate.html

The link suggests the following technique:

1. Vacuum seal pieces of watermelon (if you don't have one, just put it in a ziploc bag and take out as much as the air as possible)

2. Freeze it overnight

3. Take it out and thaw

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What type of sauce is appropriate for a dry-aged prime steak?

Question

Yesterday I purchased some dry aged prime strip steaks from my beloved Wegmans. This will be the first time I will have the opportunity to eat (as far as I know) and cook prime beef. With that in mind how should I sauce my beautiful meat?

Typically I cook my steaks sous vide to 130 degrees and then salt and pepper with a cast iron sear. If I'm going to make a pan sauce I finish in my enamelled cast iron, deglaze with a dry red, some shallots, add some heavily reduced beef stock, and then finish with a pad of butter and demi glace.

This results in a very rich sauce which is delightful in its own right. I'm concerned that I might be make a sauce that covers up this glorious beef.

Does anyone have any recommendations for my first time?

Things I'm particularly concerned with are:

• What wine to use in the sauce - is high-end/vintage wine important, and what varieties might be best?
• Should I seek out something a little more upscale than reduced Swanson beef broth?
• Is this cut generally served sauced or unsauced?

Answer

This sounds yummy!

I'd recommend cooking sous vide (SV) as you suggest (130 F for 1-3 hrs). I tend not to season in the SV bag at all because salt & spices often turn out oddly; for example, raw herbs/onion/garlic are far stronger and taste "uncooked". Figuring out how to spice SV takes a fair amount of experimentation and is best done with dried & powdered herbs/spices instead of fresh ones.

VERY IMPORTANT:

• Before cooking SV trim excess fat from the steak
• After cooking take the meat from the SV bag and DRY it thoroughly before searing!
• If you're planning to use bag juices, first bring them to a full boil in another pot and skim off the scum (myoglobin "blood"), then use whatever is left as your meat juice.

To sear, pre-heat the cast iron sear to a very high temperature (~500) and use a high-temperature oil like peanut.

The sear should be at VERY high heat for only 30 seconds or so per side - if you leave it on much longer you'll lose the beautiful 130 degree edge-to-edge miracle that should be your reward.

Using butter for the sear is not a good idea as either the butter will be destroyed by the properly high heat OR the steak will be destroyed by keeping the cast iron's heat low enough for the butter. Rather, use compound butter as a topper for presentation.

As for using a torch, I've used a brulee torch a few times and the heat & coverage is insufficient to sear a steak well with my limited experience. You can sign your name on the steak with it, but getting a good, even edge-to-edge Maillard crust is very tough. Using a MAPP torch is quite a bit better; MAPP gas is flavorless, it's hotter than propane or butane, and MAPP torches tend to fan out broader flames, but I still don't think they create as dense or flavorful a crust as a pan-sear. Moreover ANY torch runs a likelihood of flat-out burning areas of the meat, and that's especially true for a first-timer!

Let's talk about salt before going any further. I've always salted meat before grilling. But SV is a completely different ballgame. Salting before SV doesn't add much flavor for you on short cooks and hurts badly on longer ones (cures the meat). There are online arguments about this, but I prefer salting only after SV and preferably after searing. Taste tests support this post-SV salting approach - check out http://www.cookingissues.com/2011/10/12/to-salt-or-not-to-salt-%E2%80%93that%E2%80%99s-the-searing-question/ for a great take on the subject.

If you keep the searing time appropriately short you won't have to rest the meat before serving. The meat is still incredibly juicy and doesn't need time to reabsorb fluids.

As for what to do with a sauce, I'd go for the butter instead and incorporate a steak-friendly sauce into a side dish.

A quality hunk of well-marbled dry-aged beef should sing with this preparation and I'd put it center-stage to sing solo, with the side dish's sauce grooving nearby ready to join in on the chorus.

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Training on molecular gastronomy and sous vide

Question

I am looking for suggestions on opportunities for learning techniques directly from a skilled professional, preferably in a classroom setting.

I have been dabbling in molecular gastronomy/precision cooking techniques in my home for a couple years. I have relied on the Khymos online reference, videos from Texturas, and a few cookbooks. Fun as this has been, I feel I am at the point where I want to have an interactive session with someone skilled in the art, but as I cannot commit to a full-time culinary education, I need to find a recreational-level course. I would be willing to travel for a well-crafted session. Does anyone have any recommendations or ideas?

Answer

I'm not sure if you've encountered this in your research but it looks like it might be full of good information.

I would personally buy this book and fully consume it, but I personally learn better that way.

José Andrés Puerta has an M.G. restaurant in your area (minibar) that appears to be more experiential. You could probably get a few good questions in during courses.

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Searing after sous viding - what temperature?

Question

I just got a sous vide supreme for christmas and I am super excited to use it. Many of the recipes I have seen online suggest to sear the meat after cooking to provide a crust. No problem.

My question is about doneness - If I want a medium rare steak, I would cook it to 125-130. With a sous vide and an after bath sear - should I still cook it to 125, or should I cook it to 115 and let the pan finish cooking it?

Thoughts?

Thanks

Answer

The searing applied after sous-viding should not be enough to alter the temperature of the meat notably. All you're trying to do with the sear is create the flavorful crust on the outside of a piece of meat via the Malliard reaction, not accomplish any cooking of the interior of the meat itself. This is best done by applying very high heat for a very short amount time, usually just a few seconds. Some like doing this via pan-searing or on a very hot grill, but I usually use a high-powered blowtorch. The important thing is that you not sear for so long that interior of the meat has a chance to notice. A perfectly sous-vided piece of meat should be a uniform color throughout, except for a heavily seared crust. There shouldn't be any gray band of over-cooked meat under the crust. Avoiding that is why you're sous-viding in the first place.

Also, I find 125-130 to be a touch on the rare side. For a good medium rare, 133-135 gives me better results.

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How long does it take botulism spores to germinate in the fridge?

Question

Based on this question, I started wondering how long I could keep an anerobic food in the fridge before I have to worry about botulism colonization. 1 day? 3 days? 2 months? Clearly it's not a short period of time (hours) or we'd all be dying of botulism poisoning by now.

Unfortunately, nothing I've been able to find on the net seems to be based on solid studies of germination times. So, if I put a pre-prepared sous vide packet in the fridge, or homemade garlic oil, a low-acid sauce, or lemon curd, or similar, when do I have to toss it to be safe?

Answer

This completely depends on all of the other factors involved in botulinum growth, not to mention the particular strain you're concerned about (there are several).

Salt, acidity (low pH), low moisture, and extreme temperature (low or high) will all slow botulinum growth significantly.

There are proteolytic and non-proteolytic types of bacteria. The non-proteolytic C.botulinum bacteria will never grow in the refrigerator - they cannot grow at temperatures below 12° C ^source. The proteolytic strains can grow at temperatures as low as 3° C. That is very close to refrigerator temperature so clearly they will grow very slowly - again, the exact speed depends on other factors - but they will grow.

According to other sources, the proteolytic strains (the ones that can grow in the fridge) are the ones that tend to produce gas and off-odours, so they'll be more easily detectable. They also have far lower heat resistance, so they are easier to cook away. But of course, if they've grown to a sufficient level, it's too late to do that.

As far as I know, there aren't specific guidelines for vacuum-packed foods, whether commercially packed or simply cooked sous-vide. I'd ask you to consider that botulism is not the only type of foodborne illness that can grow in the refrigerator. There's also listeria, salmonella, and possibly some others I'm forgetting about. Cooking (especially sous-vide cooking) doesn't kill every last one of them, just enough to make the food safe. By the way, listeria and salmonella are both facultative anaerobes which means that they can grow with or without air.

There's also the small matter of your actual refrigerator temperature. Although the theoretical temperature (4° C) is lower than that required for all but the hardiest of bacteria, once you move up even a single degree to 5° C there are many more kinds that can start to grow. How cold is your fridge, really? I've heard of some being as high as 10-12° C in parts! If your fridge temperature is even slightly high, botulism will be the least of your worries.

Honestly, given the incredibly tiny number of actual documented cases of botulism (less than a dozen per year in the U.S.) compared to the insanely high total number of food poisoning cases every year (1 in 4 according to some sources), people seem to place far too much emphasis on that particular species. I realize that it's one of the scariest on account of that whole "instant death" thing, but even if you could prove that your improperly-stored food is 100% free of botulism toxin, you could still get seriously ill from eating it. You're literally worrying about the least probable vector for food poisoning.

Bottom line, I'd strongly advise you to treat sous-vide food just like any other food in terms of food safety and freeze it if you plan to store it longer than 4-5 days. There are just too many variables at play to conclusively say otherwise.

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Is lots of red juice normal when making sous-vide steak?

Question

So I made a 1lb hanger steak via sous-vide the other day and cooked it for 45 minutes at 130F.

After I seared in a cast iron pan, I took the meat off of the pan and let it sit for a few minutes and then sliced it up(against the grain) into smaller portions.

I noticed a lot of red juice in the plate as I was slicing it up but after I put it on a plate and it was sitting at the table, the meat almost ended up swimming in red juice.

When I order medium rare steak at a restaurant and it comes out pre-sliced, I don't usually notice this much red juice.

Is this normal?

Answer

Pretty much...yes, but you can fix it!.

When you properly sous vide or very slow cook anything, you'll retain more of the myoglobin color because of the even cooking that often doesn't go above 140 at all. So a properly cooked steak like this will retain much more of its red colored myoglobin. Simply put, the meat will have more red juices to release! (Its a great, great thing about sous vide.)

As @Ronald mentions, the other thing is the resting of the meat. It's an important step as the muscle fibers relax after the heat is off and hold juices better then. An often misstep for the home cook is they allow a hot piece of meat to rest on a flat, solid surface. This causes the bottom of the meat to steam against the board, open the fibers in the meat more, and release the juices on to the board. Rest your meat on a raised baking rack so that it has air circulation all around it.

After a short rest - for most steak 10 minutes is fine, then you can cut into the steak. Use a very sharp knife to slice. The meat here is essentially a sponge and you don't want to compress it and squeeze out the juices. A dull knife will do this and you'll lose more juice on the cutting board again. Use a sharp knife and apply steady, even, but light pressure while slicing - let the edge do the work (if it won't, sharpen the knife more).

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Pre-Cooking Steak in a bag, Any suggestions?

Question

I tried something on the weekend, and it seemed to work well, so I thought I'd ask for comments.

We'd planned to make steak for dinner, and it happened to come in a vacuum-packet plastic. So before opening the bag I dropped it into some hot water (about 170F) for a couple hours. The temp obviously fluctuated a bit, but I topped it off with hot water from time to time.

I like my steak "lightly seared", so pretty much "blue". So out the bag, into a bit of oil, then into the (very hot) pan. Maybe 60 seconds each side (probably not even that much). Out. Rested. Eat.

It was very soft - and perhaps predictably "warm through" - which was different as "blue" can end up being quite cold. Was very tender though.

So to my question - any suggested improvements on the technique? Would it benefit to keep the steak in the water longer? (I'm thinking of trying a 24 hour period next).

One down side is that marinading of the meat (in the bag) isn't possible - so good quality meat with good flavor is a must.

Answer

You've basically re-invented sous-vide cookery for steak. Steak is about the easiest food to cook sous-vide. You can find a lot of resources describing it on the web, but here's a few notes

1) 170F for 2 hours undoubtedly left your steak very well-done. Not a problem if that's how you like it, but also not necessary. You can get medium rare by cooking in the 130-135F range for two hours. Cooking sous-vide below 130F (necessary to get steak rare) is not recommended for safety reasons, as temperatures that low can encourage the growth of dangerous bacteria.

2) With sous-vide, there's no need to rest a steak after searing it. Resting grilled steaks is necessary to give heat time to move from the outside of the steak to the center, and actually get it cooked to the desired temperature. With sous-vide, you already did that in the water.

3) With an impromptu sous-vide setup like yours, you probably don't want to cook for more than a few hours. You risk your temperature getting too low overnight, and then you're down in the bacteriologically dangerous ranges. You can get some great effects cooking longer (I had 24 hour marinated skirt steak last night that was amazing), but you should probably do so with powered equipment. There are home sous-vide machines available (a bit pricy) or you can build your own. There are dozens of different rigs described on the web. I built mine for about $100.

4)Longer cooking times are better for tougher cuts anyway. If you're just looking to do ribeyes and strips, then two or three hours is fine.

5)You can marinade, but obviously not in supermarket bags (unless the supermarket marinades, e.g. pork tenderloin). To do so, you either need to purchase a vacuum sealer (not too expensive), or be clever with drawing air out of ziploc bag and sealing it very tightly.

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Meat juice reabsorption sous vide

Question

I frequently cook sous vide at home--primarily for the sake of convenience. I have been generally satisfied with the results, and normally get tender and juicy meat.

One thing that bothers me, however, is the amount of liquid left in the bag when it's done. Even when adding nothing but, say, a steak, or a pork chop, patted dry, it is disheartening to see all the juiciness I could have had getting left behind.

A few weeks ago I saw notes from a class on khymos.org, where, in the context of a cook-chill-reheat scenario, Mr. Lersch relayed Bruno Goussalt's advice to cool in stages in order to maximize reabsorption. The reasoning seemed sound: "If plunged directly into ice water fat and gelatin can cause the juices to gel, thereby effectively preventing a readsorption of the liquid."

What I would like to know is how the same idea can be applied to the scenario in which the food is cooked and then eaten, without the chilling step. One idea I've toyed with is cooking to a target temperature (say, 155), then chilling to an acceptable serving temp (say, 130)

Answer

I've seen the same thing, and mostly just take it as an excellent excuse to improve my game with respect to gravies, au jus, and reductions.

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Is it possible to cook a whole fish in a dishwasher?

Question

I heard that there is a way to cook a whole fish in a dishwasher - any techniques, tips??

Answer

Cooking in a dishwasher is related to some other non-orthodox places to cook, like on the manifold of a car on a road trip.

Basically, you're aiming to put food in an environment that's somewhere between 160F (71C) and 300F (150C) already, for non-cooking reasons. That's strange, but not entirely nuts.

The dishwasher is going to stay south of 212F (100C), but, a decent dishwasher doesn't stay very far below that threshold.

It's going to go through several variations of how that heat's applied, from the actual washing cycle to the drying cycle.

And, if you run a regular cycle of dishes, there's going to be a bunch of foreign substances (soap, food bits from the dishes (and in the car manifold situation, things like oil)) all around it.

So, your goal is to wrap the food in something that can both handle the heat and seal out the foreign stuff. To me, the most obvious solution to this is the vacuum sealed pouches used for sous vide.

You're not going to get anything remotely close to the consistent temps for sous vide, but for the dishwasher, you're still talking about mostly cooking in "hot water" and hot, moist air, so that's close enough to give a shot.

So, I'd fill the pouch with seasonings/marinades and let it ride and see what comes out.

I wouldn't expect it to be great, but it might be worth a shot for the shock value alone.

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